Comments on: The Unquestioned Gurus of the Religion of the Self http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/ Exploring the Future of Personal Development Sat, 31 Jul 2010 05:50:07 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Duff McDuffee http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1758 Duff McDuffee Tue, 02 Mar 2010 05:26:26 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1758 Thanks for the specifics, Eric. If what you say is accurate, then Tony Robbins more than exaggerated his involvement in these projects when he told the story at the event of his that I attended. Thanks for the specifics, Eric. If what you say is accurate, then Tony Robbins more than exaggerated his involvement in these projects when he told the story at the event of his that I attended.

]]> By: Eric Robbie http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1756 Eric Robbie Tue, 02 Mar 2010 04:08:05 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1756 No, I didn't. But I do know who did. The US Army modeling projects were instigated by LTC Robert Klaus and Dr Wyatt Woodsmall, and the actual modeling projects involved a number of people. The first of two projects covered pistol shooting, and was carried out from February to May, 1984, by a group of modellers: Wyatt Woodsmall, Richard Graves, Robert Klaus, Paul Tyler, and John Alexander. They were joined for some of the time by Dave Wilson, and by the then very young Tony Robbins. Robbins was invited in by Wyatt Woodsmall because he, Wyatt, was impressed as much as anything by Tony’s ‘self-confidence’. My own impression is that Tony made up for average skills with lots of chutzpah. The modeling of rifle shooting was done in 1987 and involved a much smaller group of modellers: Dr Wyatt Woodsmall, Robert Klaus, and Michael Mierau. Given the above, I think it's fair to say that Tony Robbins has over the years greatly exaggerated his involvement in these two projects. Eric Robbie. No, I didn't. But I do know who did.

The US Army modeling projects were instigated by LTC Robert Klaus and Dr Wyatt Woodsmall, and the actual modeling projects involved a number of people.

The first of two projects covered pistol shooting, and was carried out from February to May, 1984, by a group of modellers: Wyatt Woodsmall, Richard Graves, Robert Klaus, Paul Tyler, and John Alexander. They were joined for some of the time by Dave Wilson, and by the then very young Tony Robbins.

Robbins was invited in by Wyatt Woodsmall because he, Wyatt, was impressed as much as anything by Tony’s ‘self-confidence’. My own impression is that Tony made up for average skills with lots of chutzpah.

The modeling of rifle shooting was done in 1987 and involved a much smaller group of modellers: Dr Wyatt Woodsmall, Robert Klaus, and Michael Mierau.

Given the above, I think it's fair to say that Tony Robbins has over the years greatly exaggerated his involvement in these two projects.

Eric Robbie.

]]> By: Jermaine http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1684 Jermaine Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:07:56 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1684 Actually if you look at it in a way 997 dollars is a discount if you think about it! Actually if you look at it in a way 997 dollars is a discount if you think about it!

]]> By: Joy Livingwell http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1655 Joy Livingwell Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:35:42 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1655 As a woman, I got a lot of valuable information about dating and relationships from guys' point of view by studying free newsletters put out by men's dating and relationship coaches. I agree with Duff that there's a lot of manipulative crap out there -- and I appreciate, Duff, that you're willing to name names. There's also quite a bit of good, useful material out there, for both men and women. (My personal favorite is Mirabelle Summers at MeetYourSweet.com.) Lots of women get their socks rocked by men's social dominance cues, as well as certain dominance and aggression cues in the bedroom. (And many men get turned on by women's dominance cues, also.) I find PLAYING with that stuff great fun. Using dominance and aggression cues for nonconsensual manipulation and coercion, though, can cause real problems. Especially when people mistake unconscious sexual responses for social destiny... As a woman, I got a lot of valuable information about dating and relationships from guys' point of view by studying free newsletters put out by men's dating and relationship coaches. I agree with Duff that there's a lot of manipulative crap out there — and I appreciate, Duff, that you're willing to name names. There's also quite a bit of good, useful material out there, for both men and women. (My personal favorite is Mirabelle Summers at MeetYourSweet.com.)

Lots of women get their socks rocked by men's social dominance cues, as well as certain dominance and aggression cues in the bedroom. (And many men get turned on by women's dominance cues, also.) I find PLAYING with that stuff great fun. Using dominance and aggression cues for nonconsensual manipulation and coercion, though, can cause real problems. Especially when people mistake unconscious sexual responses for social destiny…

]]> By: Duff McDuffee http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1554 Duff McDuffee Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:44:42 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1554 Thanks for your comment, Khurram. Interestingly, Pavlina just posted an article in which I think he conflates healthy psychological ego-strength with ego-centricity: <a href="http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/01/how-to-build-a-stronger-ego/" target="_blank">http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/01/how-to-b...</a> I have to admit, I am a critic of the LoA which I think is based in some partial truth--which is that you increase your chances at achieving an outcome if you are congruent about it. But how we go about achieving congruence is important. Re: gurus, even in guru-yoga the highest teaching is that the guru is within. Thanks for your comment, Khurram. Interestingly, Pavlina just posted an article in which I think he conflates healthy psychological ego-strength with ego-centricity:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/01/how-to-b...

I have to admit, I am a critic of the LoA which I think is based in some partial truth–which is that you increase your chances at achieving an outcome if you are congruent about it. But how we go about achieving congruence is important.

Re: gurus, even in guru-yoga the highest teaching is that the guru is within.

]]> By: Khurram http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1553 Khurram Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:59:12 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1553 Once again cheers for this enlightening post..this might prove of interest to you in the light of this discussion if you don't already know of it <a href="http://www.joeldiana.com/guru_papers.html" target="_blank">http://www.joeldiana.com/guru_papers.html</a> Once again cheers for this enlightening post..this might prove of interest to you in the light of this discussion if you don't already know of it

http://www.joeldiana.com/guru_papers.html

]]> By: Khurram http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1552 Khurram Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:49:20 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1552 I think your post was brilliant and reflects the lines upon which I have been thinking for a long time now, having had considerable experience in the world of both the ego-denying gurus of the spiritual "otherwordly/nirvanic" variety and their cults and the ego-boosting gurus of the New Age... and I too have fell into the same trap again and again lol so I recognize the classic pattern. One of the few things I have found to date in the Self Help guru circuit that apparently respects the integrity of the seeker to find his or her own answers are the teachings of Abraham but I haven't delved deep enough to give a fair and balanced judgement based upon my own experience and observations. I have without a doubt seen the positive effects of the Law of Attraction in my own life. I came upon the idea of P2P spirituality as a paradigm for the future just this morning and my sincere belief about this matter is that the function of a Guru or Self Help Teacher could be to help one connect to one's own internal source of guidance for ALL one's questions and NO MORE than that!!! Once one has achieved that rather like learning to ride a bicycle you hopefully never forget and enjoy exploring and sharing your with others who are doing the same in a joyful lighthearted honest exchange while engaging all parts of oneself including the rational critical thinking faculty so coming to unique solutions for each individidual and collective that go beyon the established body of knowledge authority and consensus. Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority." - Thomas H. Huxley "We will discover the nature of our particular genius when we stop trying to conform to our own or to other peoples' models, learn to be ourselves, and allow our natural channel to open." Shakti Gawain, oft-ignored pioneer of the Selfgrowth movement I think your post was brilliant and reflects the lines upon which I have been thinking for a long time now, having had considerable experience in the world of both the ego-denying gurus of the spiritual "otherwordly/nirvanic" variety and their cults and the ego-boosting gurus of the New Age… and I too have fell into the same trap again and again lol so I recognize the classic pattern.

One of the few things I have found to date in the Self Help guru circuit that apparently respects the integrity of the seeker to find his or her own answers are the teachings of Abraham but I haven't delved deep enough to give a fair and balanced judgement based upon my own experience and observations. I have without a doubt seen the positive effects of the Law of Attraction in my own life.

I came upon the idea of P2P spirituality as a paradigm for the future just this morning and my sincere belief about this matter is that the function of a Guru or Self Help Teacher could be to help one connect to one's own internal source of guidance for ALL one's questions and NO MORE than that!!!

Once one has achieved that rather like learning to ride a bicycle you hopefully never forget and enjoy exploring and sharing your with others who are doing the same in a joyful lighthearted honest exchange while engaging all parts of oneself including the rational critical thinking faculty so coming to unique solutions for each individidual and collective that go beyon the established body of knowledge authority and consensus.

Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority." – Thomas H. Huxley

"We will discover the nature of our particular genius when we stop trying to conform to our own or to other peoples' models, learn to be ourselves, and allow our natural channel to open."

Shakti Gawain, oft-ignored pioneer of the Selfgrowth movement

]]> By: What Can Miss Gay America Teach Us About Authenticity? | Beyond Growth http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1191 What Can Miss Gay America Teach Us About Authenticity? | Beyond Growth Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:48:11 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1191 [...] written several articles here on Beyond Growth critiquing pick-up artist gurus who teach men how to transform into [...] [...] written several articles here on Beyond Growth critiquing pick-up artist gurus who teach men how to transform into [...]

]]> By: Duff McDuffee http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1187 Duff McDuffee Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:26:08 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1187 Also, if you are willing to share, did you do the modeling for the US Army that Tony Robbins talks about? He tells the story that he got the contract and modeled the pistol shooters. Also, if you are willing to share, did you do the modeling for the US Army that Tony Robbins talks about? He tells the story that he got the contract and modeled the pistol shooters.

]]> By: Duff McDuffee http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-criticism/the-unquestioned-gurus-of-the-religion-of-the-self/comment-page-1/#comment-1186 Duff McDuffee Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:25:06 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=627#comment-1186 Thanks, Eric. I appreciate the information. Thanks, Eric. I appreciate the information.

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