Comments on: The 4-Minute Mile and the Myths of Positive Thinking http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/ Exploring the Future of Personal Development Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:19:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: חברת פוליש http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-15271 חברת פוליש Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:32:15 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-15271 השבוע סיימתי עיצוב פנים ושיפוץ בבית הכלל הרכבת רצפה וצביעת קירות ותיקרות , בימים אלו הבית נראה די נקי אם לא הרצפה החדשה שיש עליה סימנים מלוכלכת , באופן כללי הדירה לא לא מבריק . חשבתי שאקראה ל עסק בתחום ניקיון שתבאי את המנקים שלה שיבצעו פוליש לרצפה בבית . השבוע סיימתי עיצוב פנים ושיפוץ בבית הכלל הרכבת רצפה וצביעת קירות ותיקרות , בימים אלו הבית נראה די נקי אם לא הרצפה החדשה שיש עליה סימנים מלוכלכת , באופן כללי הדירה לא לא מבריק . חשבתי שאקראה ל עסק בתחום ניקיון שתבאי את המנקים שלה שיבצעו פוליש לרצפה בבית .

]]> By: Duff McDuffee http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-11613 Duff McDuffee Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:33:04 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-11613 Hi Dunede, thanks for stopping by and commenting. If thoughts could control outcomes with any sort of reliability, certainly James Arthur Ray---star of the moviemercial <em>The Secret</em>---would not have been convicted of 3 counts of negligent homicide yesterday. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FUVwDcpLwY" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FUVwDcpLwY</a> Thinking certainly <em>influences</em> one's behavior and one's communication which then have some influence on one's goals, etc. But the question is to what extent? I think Eric is very much correct---the 4 minute mile was going to be broken soon enough because of the downward trend in 1 mile times. It wasn't a matter of great personal belief necessarily, and we only highlight the 4 minute mile because it's a nice round number. Before that the 4 minute, 10 second mile had to be broken, but no personal development guru recalls any great stories of personal triumph for this milestone in human achievement. Saying the author is an atheist is an <em>ad hominem</em> (i.e. personal attack) and a <em>red herring</em> (i.e. irrelevant) to the argument presented by the author. The argument that quantum physics has proved that observing a phenomena can change the outcome is false and misleading, and certainly does not apply on the non-quantum scale. The flat earth hypothesis was also not widely believed at the time of Columbus, even though we are taught that this is the case. Hi Dunede, thanks for stopping by and commenting.

If thoughts could control outcomes with any sort of reliability, certainly James Arthur Ray—star of the moviemercial The Secret—would not have been convicted of 3 counts of negligent homicide yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FUVwDcpLwY

Thinking certainly influences one's behavior and one's communication which then have some influence on one's goals, etc. But the question is to what extent?

I think Eric is very much correct—the 4 minute mile was going to be broken soon enough because of the downward trend in 1 mile times. It wasn't a matter of great personal belief necessarily, and we only highlight the 4 minute mile because it's a nice round number. Before that the 4 minute, 10 second mile had to be broken, but no personal development guru recalls any great stories of personal triumph for this milestone in human achievement.

Saying the author is an atheist is an ad hominem (i.e. personal attack) and a red herring (i.e. irrelevant) to the argument presented by the author. The argument that quantum physics has proved that observing a phenomena can change the outcome is false and misleading, and certainly does not apply on the non-quantum scale. The flat earth hypothesis was also not widely believed at the time of Columbus, even though we are taught that this is the case.

]]> By: Dunede http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-11609 Dunede Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:04:00 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-11609 The author is an avowed atheist so what he tries to prove is that something we can't sense with the 5 senses doesn't exists.. what a limiting life goal. Anyway, the more intelligent and provable proponents of the idea that our thoughts can control an outcome aren't saying that positive thinking alone is such a miracle but that negative or limiting belief's can keep us from fulfilling our true potential... genetics or not. God or no god. Quantum physics has proved beyond doubt that just the mere observation of a phenomena can change the outcome of that phenomena so to claim emphatically that our thoughts can't effect the outcome of a situation is truly a scientific step backwards into the dark ages.. There once was a mass delusion that the world was flat (amongst some cultures) and once that trap was broken they came flooding across the Atlantic. This was the result of a limiting fear based belief being lifted. The author has a graph of the times being set by runners but very little else. Someone else pointed out the limited information of this "cherry picked" statistic. I'm to busy myself and have no desire to "prove" my point of view but I'm going to state clearly that if one looked deeper into the statistics one will see a surge in all the times across the field...even times above the 4 minute mile there will be a definite increase in the performance of the majority of runners. Thoughts do become things... choosing the good ones is a wonderful idea, but challenging the limiting ones is our responsibility for sure. One very limiting belief is that in the universe there is nothing greater than the simple mechanism of mans intellect coupled with ego and that our thoughts individually and collectively can not effect the outcome of a situation. Yes.. this may be right brained new age thinking and I'm proud of it. The author is an avowed atheist so what he tries to prove is that something we can't sense with the 5 senses doesn't exists.. what a limiting life goal. Anyway, the more intelligent and provable proponents of the idea that our thoughts can control an outcome aren't saying that positive thinking alone is such a miracle but that negative or limiting belief's can keep us from fulfilling our true potential… genetics or not. God or no god. Quantum physics has proved beyond doubt that just the mere observation of a phenomena can change the outcome of that phenomena so to claim emphatically that our thoughts can't effect the outcome of a situation is truly a scientific step backwards into the dark ages.. There once was a mass delusion that the world was flat (amongst some cultures) and once that trap was broken they came flooding across the Atlantic. This was the result of a limiting fear based belief being lifted. The author has a graph of the times being set by runners but very little else. Someone else pointed out the limited information of this "cherry picked" statistic. I'm to busy myself and have no desire to "prove" my point of view but I'm going to state clearly that if one looked deeper into the statistics one will see a surge in all the times across the field…even times above the 4 minute mile there will be a definite increase in the performance of the majority of runners. Thoughts do become things… choosing the good ones is a wonderful idea, but challenging the limiting ones is our responsibility for sure. One very limiting belief is that in the universe there is nothing greater than the simple mechanism of mans intellect coupled with ego and that our thoughts individually and collectively can not effect the outcome of a situation. Yes.. this may be right brained new age thinking and I'm proud of it.

]]> By: mike3 http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-3559 mike3 Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:35:27 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-3559 Note that 2 of the factors on Eric's list are out of one's hands to control. So if you're missing these, you're toast. And having good genetics for this kind of high-end athletics is *RARE*. That must be why these myths are so popular: because they try to put more in your control than really is. Note that 2 of the factors on Eric's list are out of one's hands to control. So if you're missing these, you're toast. And having good genetics for this kind of high-end athletics is *RARE*. That must be why these myths are so popular: because they try to put more in your control than really is.

]]> By: Tup http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-3451 Tup Wed, 05 Jan 2011 21:03:12 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-3451 Not to oversimplify this whole conversation, but I think the story (as it relates to the importance of belief) boils down to this: You will have a much better chance at acheiving a task if your mindset is such that said task is acheivable/attainable/etc. If you say, "this math class is so hard...I'll probably fail", then your mindset is such that the task is impossible (at least for you), and as a result, your chances for success are quite low. On the other hand, if you say, "this math class is hard, but people have been passing these classes for years, so there is a way to get this done", then you are more willing to exhaust your resources in persuit of that goal (like Banister with his crazytraining routine...he didn;t just believe it was possible, he also felt he could be the first). Not to oversimplify this whole conversation, but I think the story (as it relates to the importance of belief) boils down to this: You will have a much better chance at acheiving a task if your mindset is such that said task is acheivable/attainable/etc. If you say, "this math class is so hard…I'll probably fail", then your mindset is such that the task is impossible (at least for you), and as a result, your chances for success are quite low. On the other hand, if you say, "this math class is hard, but people have been passing these classes for years, so there is a way to get this done", then you are more willing to exhaust your resources in persuit of that goal (like Banister with his crazytraining routine…he didn;t just believe it was possible, he also felt he could be the first).

]]> By: Wrdpainter http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-3185 Wrdpainter Mon, 15 Nov 2010 01:32:29 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-3185 If you don't believe it, you will never try. Why would I waste my time doing the impossible. Belief has to be a part of it. Explain the Wright brothers and many others who believed in something enough to find a way to make it happen even though they were laughed at, called crazy etc. So you are saying that if they didn't believe in what others called impossible we would still have planes, electricity, phones etc? Who would have spent their time, money and lives on something they didn't believe in? So, its all about critical thinking? How do you critically think love? If you don't believe in love, you won't have it, feel it and so on. You have to believe. If you don't believe it, you will never try. Why would I waste my time doing the impossible. Belief has to be a part of it. Explain the Wright brothers and many others who believed in something enough to find a way to make it happen even though they were laughed at, called crazy etc. So you are saying that if they didn't believe in what others called impossible we would still have planes, electricity, phones etc? Who would have spent their time, money and lives on something they didn't believe in? So, its all about critical thinking? How do you critically think love? If you don't believe in love, you won't have it, feel it and so on. You have to believe.

]]> By: Beyond Growth – Technoccult interviews Duff McDuffee and Eric Schiller | Technoccult http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-1932 Beyond Growth – Technoccult interviews Duff McDuffee and Eric Schiller | Technoccult Tue, 11 May 2010 14:37:37 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-1932 [...] The 4-Minute Mile and the Myths of Positive Thinking [...] [...] The 4-Minute Mile and the Myths of Positive Thinking [...]

]]> By: You can have a positive mental attitude and still die from cancer | Technoccult http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-1930 You can have a positive mental attitude and still die from cancer | Technoccult Mon, 03 May 2010 21:03:18 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-1930 [...] The 4-Minute Mile and the Myths of Positive Thinking a2a_config.linkname="You can have a positive mental attitude and still die from cancer"; a2a_config.linkurl="http://technoccult.net/archives/2010/05/03/you-can-have-a-positive-mental-attitude-and-still-die-from-cancer/"; a2a.init("page"); [...] [...] The 4-Minute Mile and the Myths of Positive Thinking a2a_config.linkname="You can have a positive mental attitude and still die from cancer"; a2a_config.linkurl="http://technoccult.net/archives/2010/05/03/you-can-have-a-positive-mental-attitude-and-still-die-from-cancer/"; a2a.init("page"); [...]

]]> By: Old Runner http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-1885 Old Runner Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:56:21 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-1885 Also interesting is that the "race" in which Bannister first achieved a 4-minute mile wasn't a race at all - it was a time trial, set up to allow him to make a run at the record. On the track with Bannister, two "rabbits" whose job was to set a pace, but nobody actually trying to "win" the race except Roger Bannister. It was absolutely rational, and planned, and arranged to give him the best possibility of success. Still remarkable for anyone to run a 4-minute mile, but "faith" was probably a lot less significant than confidence in his own preparation as well as the external preparations for the attempt. In his previous attempt, of the "rabbits" had even allowed Bannister to "lap" them - while they jogged and rested, so that he could have a rabbit to set the pace on later laps. I'm not sure what the rules are now, but when I ran competitively in the late 70s and early 80s, no one would have been able to set a world record (officially) in such a setting. Although there's been a tendency to nod and wink at the use of "rabbits" in record attempts in track and field, nobody would have been able to set one the way Roger Bannister did. I recall an attempt at the 800m record by Mike Boit back in the 70s where they had to have a certain number of runners on the track to make it a valid race, but we all knew who was going to be leading the "race" at every furlong and nobody got in Mike's way. ;-) Also interesting is that the "race" in which Bannister first achieved a 4-minute mile wasn't a race at all – it was a time trial, set up to allow him to make a run at the record. On the track with Bannister, two "rabbits" whose job was to set a pace, but nobody actually trying to "win" the race except Roger Bannister.

It was absolutely rational, and planned, and arranged to give him the best possibility of success. Still remarkable for anyone to run a 4-minute mile, but "faith" was probably a lot less significant than confidence in his own preparation as well as the external preparations for the attempt.

In his previous attempt, of the "rabbits" had even allowed Bannister to "lap" them – while they jogged and rested, so that he could have a rabbit to set the pace on later laps.

I'm not sure what the rules are now, but when I ran competitively in the late 70s and early 80s, no one would have been able to set a world record (officially) in such a setting.

Although there's been a tendency to nod and wink at the use of "rabbits" in record attempts in track and field, nobody would have been able to set one the way Roger Bannister did.

I recall an attempt at the 800m record by Mike Boit back in the 70s where they had to have a certain number of runners on the track to make it a valid race, but we all knew who was going to be leading the "race" at every furlong and nobody got in Mike's way. ;-)

]]> By: Bob Weisenberg http://beyondgrowth.net/positive-thinking/the-4-minute-mile-and-the-myths-of-positive-thinking/comment-page-1/#comment-1607 Bob Weisenberg Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:42:37 +0000 http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1396#comment-1607 Well put, Carlon. I agree with you belief is only one of the critical factors, but it's got to be on the list. I want to repeat what I wrote earlier--that most self-help books are 90% about the other factors, not belief. You'd never know this by the come-on and the cover, but when you look inside most of them, they all say, "OK, once you believe, here's what you have to do to make your dream a reality--word hard, think critically, build relationships, and get the right training. So, in reality, even the very book that are being excoriated here largely agree with Eric if you look even a little bit beyond the surface! That's why these books often have such a great impact. They get stuck people off their duffs and then give them the highly practical logic rational path to go after their dream. If they don't get there, so what. They still got a lot farther than they would have if they had stayed on their overly self-doubting duffs. (Boy that has a nice ring to it--"overly self-doubting duffs".) Certainly worked for me over and over again. Bob Weisenberg <a href="http://YogaDemystified.com" target="_blank">http://YogaDemystified.com</a> Well put, Carlon. I agree with you belief is only one of the critical factors, but it's got to be on the list.

I want to repeat what I wrote earlier–that most self-help books are 90% about the other factors, not belief. You'd never know this by the come-on and the cover, but when you look inside most of them, they all say, "OK, once you believe, here's what you have to do to make your dream a reality–word hard, think critically, build relationships, and get the right training.

So, in reality, even the very book that are being excoriated here largely agree with Eric if you look even a little bit beyond the surface!

That's why these books often have such a great impact. They get stuck people off their duffs and then give them the highly practical logic rational path to go after their dream. If they don't get there, so what. They still got a lot farther than they would have if they had stayed on their overly self-doubting duffs. (Boy that has a nice ring to it–"overly self-doubting duffs".)

Certainly worked for me over and over again.

Bob Weisenberg
http://YogaDemystified.com

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