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	<title>Comments on: The New Minimalism or the New Consumerism?</title>
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	<description>Exploring the Future of Personal Development</description>
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		<title>By: How Much Would You Pay for a New Habit? &#124; Beyond Growth</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-8731</link>
		<dc:creator>How Much Would You Pay for a New Habit? &#124; Beyond Growth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2011 22:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-8731</guid>
		<description>[...] this.) Yet the $497 price tag is hardly a fit for the frugal personal development consumer. Like Leo&#8217;s love of this minimalist mansion, his stated values and his actions seem to be once again incongruent. While there is a money-back [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this.) Yet the $497 price tag is hardly a fit for the frugal personal development consumer. Like Leo&#8217;s love of this minimalist mansion, his stated values and his actions seem to be once again incongruent. While there is a money-back [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Duff McDuffee</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2711</link>
		<dc:creator>Duff McDuffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2010 21:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2711</guid>
		<description>I think there are both inner and outer manifestations of consumerism. Definitely there is an inner component as you said, the neurotic and compulsive experience (I&#039;d say &lt;em&gt;behavior&lt;/em&gt; is an outer manifestation). I think it is excellent inner work to transform that compulsion, and I&#039;m glad you had a major shift in that regard.  
  
I don&#039;t think it is much of a stretch---Baubata praised that particular mansion as an example of a minimalist home. He has since recanted his views (in these comments, but not on that blog post).  
  
I don&#039;t know about &quot;most cases,&quot; but I do think there is a common confusion between minimalist aesthetics and minimalist ethics, or even just aesthetics and ethics in general.   
  
Baubata said in these comments that he changed his mind about minimalism and big fancy homes are now out in his value system. I have to assume that is true. Yet I haven&#039;t seen him taking any strong ethical stands in his writing. Why not? If minimalism is about our collective environmental destruction and not simply a lifestyle choice, why not speak up more strongly? Ethics themselves are being reduced to aesthetics when &quot;my ethics&quot; cannot intrude on yours. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are both inner and outer manifestations of consumerism. Definitely there is an inner component as you said, the neurotic and compulsive experience (I&#039;d say <em>behavior</em> is an outer manifestation). I think it is excellent inner work to transform that compulsion, and I&#039;m glad you had a major shift in that regard.  </p>
<p>I don&#039;t think it is much of a stretch&#8212;Baubata praised that particular mansion as an example of a minimalist home. He has since recanted his views (in these comments, but not on that blog post).  </p>
<p>I don&#039;t know about &quot;most cases,&quot; but I do think there is a common confusion between minimalist aesthetics and minimalist ethics, or even just aesthetics and ethics in general.   </p>
<p>Baubata said in these comments that he changed his mind about minimalism and big fancy homes are now out in his value system. I have to assume that is true. Yet I haven&#039;t seen him taking any strong ethical stands in his writing. Why not? If minimalism is about our collective environmental destruction and not simply a lifestyle choice, why not speak up more strongly? Ethics themselves are being reduced to aesthetics when &quot;my ethics&quot; cannot intrude on yours.</p>
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		<title>By: @darchand</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2692</link>
		<dc:creator>@darchand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2692</guid>
		<description>interesting and overdue discussion.  i&#039;ve been &#039;minimalist&#039; for years without even realising it.  the change for me happened after some pretty intense therapy, when the compulsion to consume, impress people or otherwise keep up with everyone else just sort of stopped.   
 
this may be a little off-topic, but i believe consumerism is driven by neurotic, compulsive behaviour, and it&#039;s that that is the real issue, and not its outer manifestation.  in most cases becoming a &#039;minimalist&#039; is just some neat outer &#039;rebranding&#039; or &#039;lifestyle choice&#039;, and that unless you really make an internal change, you&#039;ll just continue to behave in a compulsive and neurotic manner.  possibly by becoming a blogger or otherwise trying to enforce your ideas on others, but the options are endless i suppose. 
 
on balance though i think your interpretation of a picture in an old blog post was a HUGE stretch, as Leo never mentioned buying a large mansion.  inasmuch as minimalism involves a search for deeper meaning in one&#039;s life, i really think it&#039;s a positive development.  just try to look past the stuff (or absence of stuff) because this should not be the sole focus. 
My recent post &lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/darchand/statuses/26727026146&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;darchand- trying to limit checking twitter and email to twice a day  i think any more is bordering on OCD&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting and overdue discussion.  i&#039;ve been &#039;minimalist&#039; for years without even realising it.  the change for me happened after some pretty intense therapy, when the compulsion to consume, impress people or otherwise keep up with everyone else just sort of stopped.   </p>
<p>this may be a little off-topic, but i believe consumerism is driven by neurotic, compulsive behaviour, and it&#039;s that that is the real issue, and not its outer manifestation.  in most cases becoming a &#039;minimalist&#039; is just some neat outer &#039;rebranding&#039; or &#039;lifestyle choice&#039;, and that unless you really make an internal change, you&#039;ll just continue to behave in a compulsive and neurotic manner.  possibly by becoming a blogger or otherwise trying to enforce your ideas on others, but the options are endless i suppose. </p>
<p>on balance though i think your interpretation of a picture in an old blog post was a HUGE stretch, as Leo never mentioned buying a large mansion.  inasmuch as minimalism involves a search for deeper meaning in one&#039;s life, i really think it&#039;s a positive development.  just try to look past the stuff (or absence of stuff) because this should not be the sole focus.<br />
My recent post <a href="http://twitter.com/darchand/statuses/26727026146" target="_blank">darchand- trying to limit checking twitter and email to twice a day  i think any more is bordering on OCD</a></p>
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		<title>By: Duff McDuffee</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2638</link>
		<dc:creator>Duff McDuffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Oct 2010 07:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2638</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your thoughts, Michael. Glad some agree that I didn&#039;t push it too far. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your thoughts, Michael. Glad some agree that I didn&#039;t push it too far.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2637</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Oct 2010 07:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2637</guid>
		<description>I know this is late, but I don&#039;t think you pushed it too far. There are plenty of people who have access to Leo&#039;s site, access to the internet, etc. that lack the academic sophistication AND the economic ability to take his advice. 
 
If everyone took to heard what he wrote, we would have a nation of people vying to live in &quot;minimalist&quot; 5000 sq ft homes. I don&#039;t think the overwhelming majority of the middle class can afford this. Read: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-about-who-has-money/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-mi...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
The structure of the economy and the relative price of computers and communications technology means that people who ARE struggling to finance modest lives are also reading this stuff on their laptops. 
 
And the message they get is &quot;look now, you could be so much happier if you did this, and not this this and that. PS, 5000 sq feet is about the comfortable yet modest sized home you should look for&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is late, but I don&#039;t think you pushed it too far. There are plenty of people who have access to Leo&#039;s site, access to the internet, etc. that lack the academic sophistication AND the economic ability to take his advice. </p>
<p>If everyone took to heard what he wrote, we would have a nation of people vying to live in &quot;minimalist&quot; 5000 sq ft homes. I don&#039;t think the overwhelming majority of the middle class can afford this. Read: <a href="http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-about-who-has-money/" target="_blank">http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-mi&#8230;</a> </p>
<p>The structure of the economy and the relative price of computers and communications technology means that people who ARE struggling to finance modest lives are also reading this stuff on their laptops. </p>
<p>And the message they get is &quot;look now, you could be so much happier if you did this, and not this this and that. PS, 5000 sq feet is about the comfortable yet modest sized home you should look for&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Rasmussen</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2560</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Rasmussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2560</guid>
		<description>    Understood. I was unaware as to whether he lived in one, or espoused one. Agree with what you indicated, in his writing. It comes across a little bit like political talk. I was unable to locate ideas that indicated any actual change, or what that change might be. 
 
   I will put forward that I suspect more than a few New Minimalists or Technomads of being quite sincere, but unaware of the cultural history. For instance, here in Vancouver, attempts are ongoing to gentrify the DTES (Downtown Eastside, also known as the &#039;demilitarized zone&#039; and legendary for being the poorest neighborhood in Canada, and some parts of the USA). This consists of not addressing the actual problems, and throwing in a few expensive loft spaces, which the relatively rich move in to. They then complain about the smell, and the noise, and mix with the local area not very well, which, of course, causes a lot of friction and resentment.  
 
   As well, in the past, both recent and fairly deep, the bourgeois have, on the rare occasions they felt guilty about their affluence, have attempted various &#039;movements&#039; to find meaning, to connect with the &#039;noble&#039; lower classes. Traditionally, this has not gone well with the so-called noble lower classes. Whether well meaning, pure of heart, or otherwise, said upper class types reveal their breeding, their cultural bias, their ignorance, the moment they issue a collective statement. And are usually unaware of why they seem to be offending many. 
 
   Communication, a certain amount of experience, are about the only things that might help a divide like this. I&#039;d recommend that New Minimalists try and talk to people not of their station. I&#039;ve had to learn simple lessons of communication, through long experience, and they work. It&#039;s totally cool to brag, but not when one has done little to deserve the bragging. And, as many people have pointed out, the presence, or lack of, material things will in no way whatsoever, lead to inner peace. Or even a nice philosophical frame of mind. Last little thing: it might behoove those of different castes, like me, to also find a frame of mind, an approach that connects, and blogs will never replace face to face.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Understood. I was unaware as to whether he lived in one, or espoused one. Agree with what you indicated, in his writing. It comes across a little bit like political talk. I was unable to locate ideas that indicated any actual change, or what that change might be. </p>
<p>   I will put forward that I suspect more than a few New Minimalists or Technomads of being quite sincere, but unaware of the cultural history. For instance, here in Vancouver, attempts are ongoing to gentrify the DTES (Downtown Eastside, also known as the &#039;demilitarized zone&#039; and legendary for being the poorest neighborhood in Canada, and some parts of the USA). This consists of not addressing the actual problems, and throwing in a few expensive loft spaces, which the relatively rich move in to. They then complain about the smell, and the noise, and mix with the local area not very well, which, of course, causes a lot of friction and resentment.  </p>
<p>   As well, in the past, both recent and fairly deep, the bourgeois have, on the rare occasions they felt guilty about their affluence, have attempted various &#039;movements&#039; to find meaning, to connect with the &#039;noble&#039; lower classes. Traditionally, this has not gone well with the so-called noble lower classes. Whether well meaning, pure of heart, or otherwise, said upper class types reveal their breeding, their cultural bias, their ignorance, the moment they issue a collective statement. And are usually unaware of why they seem to be offending many. </p>
<p>   Communication, a certain amount of experience, are about the only things that might help a divide like this. I&#039;d recommend that New Minimalists try and talk to people not of their station. I&#039;ve had to learn simple lessons of communication, through long experience, and they work. It&#039;s totally cool to brag, but not when one has done little to deserve the bragging. And, as many people have pointed out, the presence, or lack of, material things will in no way whatsoever, lead to inner peace. Or even a nice philosophical frame of mind. Last little thing: it might behoove those of different castes, like me, to also find a frame of mind, an approach that connects, and blogs will never replace face to face.</p>
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		<title>By: Duff McDuffee</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2559</link>
		<dc:creator>Duff McDuffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 08:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2559</guid>
		<description>For clarity&#039;s sake, I&#039;m pretty sure Mr. Babauta does not live in a mansion. The one pictured in this article was a home he praised for it&#039;s minimalist aesthetic in an article he wrote for Zen Habits. Leo claimed in these comments that he no longer supports such massive homes, but has not retracted his article, nor was this change in values at all clear to me from his current writing, which is why I wrote this article on the contradictions in the New Minimalism. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For clarity&#039;s sake, I&#039;m pretty sure Mr. Babauta does not live in a mansion. The one pictured in this article was a home he praised for it&#039;s minimalist aesthetic in an article he wrote for Zen Habits. Leo claimed in these comments that he no longer supports such massive homes, but has not retracted his article, nor was this change in values at all clear to me from his current writing, which is why I wrote this article on the contradictions in the New Minimalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Duff McDuffee</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2558</link>
		<dc:creator>Duff McDuffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 08:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2558</guid>
		<description>Just to be clear, I was a vegan, but I eat meat now. I stopped due to health reasons, but still agree with the ethics of vegetarian/vegan diets. I helped form a vegetarian advocacy organization on my college campus, but we took an educational approach instead of a PETA confrontational approach. While I don&#039;t try and push vegetarian values on people who aren&#039;t interested, I do sometimes argue the point if people are unaware of some of the issues like factory farming or environmental impact of meat consumption (esp. red meat) or if someone is actively denying the existence of factory farming for instance. 
 
That said, glad you enjoyed the article. I have no solution to all of the world&#039;s problems either, but hope that by participating in the discussion I can contribute in some small way. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to be clear, I was a vegan, but I eat meat now. I stopped due to health reasons, but still agree with the ethics of vegetarian/vegan diets. I helped form a vegetarian advocacy organization on my college campus, but we took an educational approach instead of a PETA confrontational approach. While I don&#039;t try and push vegetarian values on people who aren&#039;t interested, I do sometimes argue the point if people are unaware of some of the issues like factory farming or environmental impact of meat consumption (esp. red meat) or if someone is actively denying the existence of factory farming for instance. </p>
<p>That said, glad you enjoyed the article. I have no solution to all of the world&#039;s problems either, but hope that by participating in the discussion I can contribute in some small way.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Rasmussen</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2557</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Rasmussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2010 06:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2557</guid>
		<description>Leo-are you going to (I&#039;m assuming you live in that nice expensive mansion) go for a smaller space? As someone who is very very poor-here in Canada, the poverty line is considered to be at 20 to 30 thousand (in other words, teachers up here are poor, and service industry people even poorer), I have a rather marked tendency to not listen to someone who says &quot;you should do this&quot; while doing something else. Especially money. Equally, we had a politician live for three days on 75$ a day, in an SRL-about enough room for a bed, at 350$ a month. And all the junkies and vermin you could stand. Everyone was deeply insulted when he announced that now he knew what it was like. He didn&#039;t. He goes back to his, well, everything. So, to me, it&#039;s a practical matter. It&#039;s actually, and realistically, great that you got yourself out of debt. And it&#039;s natural to lay down some nice brag on it. People don&#039;t mind that at all. In fact, they&#039;ll even cheer for you. But patronizing-I&#039;ll be very clear here-which is something that some people seem to feel you are doing, and, to them, being somewhat hypocritical, may not be the best approach. It&#039;s sensitive territory. Many people would rather admit they have some horrid, socially unacceptable disease, than admit what they earn - or what lifestyle they choose. Consider Duff-he mentions that he&#039;s a vegan - but he does not press the issue. I&#039;m not a vegan, because I like the taste of meat. I disagree, on a personal level, with what seem to be well, excuses - I&#039;ve met vegans who were truthful, and said anything from &quot;my lover wants me to be&quot; to &quot;I just cannot stand the taste of meat. It actively makes me sick.&quot; 
 
The problem for me, is any vegan who chooses to get in my face with what I should do - keeping in mind that I&#039;m free to ignore anyone whom I don&#039;t agree with. Same as you are, Leo - I tend to abide by &#039;practice what you preach, and if you must preach, try to do so softly.&quot; I admit the last bit is a bit hard to specify...Hey, I&#039;d even be happy with &quot;I was in debt, I got myself out of debt, and hey, I turned it into a business.&quot; I dunno, maybe selling the philosophy is a way of selling the biz. 
 
On a practical level, I am aghast at some basic issues i see, with how people are going about it. One fella eats out every night, and doesn&#039;t see how that&#039;s rampant consumerism, and also, has nothing in the way of survival gear for when things get rough. Another couple travelling with a six month old, their first, I believe, apparently unaware of what that child is going to be like, as soon as he&#039;s able to articulate decently, and move around. I see a lot of people making this lifestyle choice much in the same way one sees some greenhorn out in the wilderness, going all Walden back to nature, and clueless. One couple, living on a farm (of their rich mom) who claim they never bathe, and committing an act of utter stupidity-their well was upslope from their home. You never put a well upslope from where you live. That can contaminate the water supply.  
 
So I am somewhat angered, mostly amused, and kind of concerned. Just my couple bucks. Inflation, you know. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leo-are you going to (I&#039;m assuming you live in that nice expensive mansion) go for a smaller space? As someone who is very very poor-here in Canada, the poverty line is considered to be at 20 to 30 thousand (in other words, teachers up here are poor, and service industry people even poorer), I have a rather marked tendency to not listen to someone who says &quot;you should do this&quot; while doing something else. Especially money. Equally, we had a politician live for three days on 75$ a day, in an SRL-about enough room for a bed, at 350$ a month. And all the junkies and vermin you could stand. Everyone was deeply insulted when he announced that now he knew what it was like. He didn&#039;t. He goes back to his, well, everything. So, to me, it&#039;s a practical matter. It&#039;s actually, and realistically, great that you got yourself out of debt. And it&#039;s natural to lay down some nice brag on it. People don&#039;t mind that at all. In fact, they&#039;ll even cheer for you. But patronizing-I&#039;ll be very clear here-which is something that some people seem to feel you are doing, and, to them, being somewhat hypocritical, may not be the best approach. It&#039;s sensitive territory. Many people would rather admit they have some horrid, socially unacceptable disease, than admit what they earn &#8211; or what lifestyle they choose. Consider Duff-he mentions that he&#039;s a vegan &#8211; but he does not press the issue. I&#039;m not a vegan, because I like the taste of meat. I disagree, on a personal level, with what seem to be well, excuses &#8211; I&#039;ve met vegans who were truthful, and said anything from &quot;my lover wants me to be&quot; to &quot;I just cannot stand the taste of meat. It actively makes me sick.&quot; </p>
<p>The problem for me, is any vegan who chooses to get in my face with what I should do &#8211; keeping in mind that I&#039;m free to ignore anyone whom I don&#039;t agree with. Same as you are, Leo &#8211; I tend to abide by &#039;practice what you preach, and if you must preach, try to do so softly.&quot; I admit the last bit is a bit hard to specify&#8230;Hey, I&#039;d even be happy with &quot;I was in debt, I got myself out of debt, and hey, I turned it into a business.&quot; I dunno, maybe selling the philosophy is a way of selling the biz. </p>
<p>On a practical level, I am aghast at some basic issues i see, with how people are going about it. One fella eats out every night, and doesn&#039;t see how that&#039;s rampant consumerism, and also, has nothing in the way of survival gear for when things get rough. Another couple travelling with a six month old, their first, I believe, apparently unaware of what that child is going to be like, as soon as he&#039;s able to articulate decently, and move around. I see a lot of people making this lifestyle choice much in the same way one sees some greenhorn out in the wilderness, going all Walden back to nature, and clueless. One couple, living on a farm (of their rich mom) who claim they never bathe, and committing an act of utter stupidity-their well was upslope from their home. You never put a well upslope from where you live. That can contaminate the water supply.  </p>
<p>So I am somewhat angered, mostly amused, and kind of concerned. Just my couple bucks. Inflation, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: The 7 Link Challenge &#171; Journey of Life</title>
		<link>http://beyondgrowth.net/social-criticism/the-new-minimalism-or-the-new-consumerism/comment-page-1/#comment-2551</link>
		<dc:creator>The 7 Link Challenge &#171; Journey of Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://beyondgrowth.net/?p=1752#comment-2551</guid>
		<description>[...] would turn into an endless list of links, so for this one I will stick to the rules and go with The New Minimalism or the New Consumerism? from Beyond [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] would turn into an endless list of links, so for this one I will stick to the rules and go with The New Minimalism or the New Consumerism? from Beyond [...]</p>
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